Sunday, October 16, 2005

Arrogance

As I have mentioned before, I find myself in frequent debates with people on various Blogs. Most of them are healthy debates. Ones in which I have learned and, I hope, people have occasional learned from me. You are also undoubtedly aware that some of these debates have nothing to do with learning experiences. They are more a matter of simply butting heads.

In most forums I will only go so far with someone who obviously isn't engaging in the same conversation I am. I have too many other ways to better spend my energy. As such, I just let them go there own way. There are certain individuals that I will run across though that manage to set the stage on which simply walking away won't work.

For months I have been in a number of debates with one person in particular. (If you haven't done so, you can follow the link to the right, to the only Blog that is linked. You will quickly see what I mean.) I have sat down and thought about it several times, and it finally occurred to me what my issue is here. Why it is that I am continuously driven to respond to comments he makes to me. Initially I thought it was simply because he was directly referencing or commenting to me, but there is more to it than that.

This man is a Pastor. No big surprise. Many of us that travel amongst the Blogs I frequent are ministers of one type or another. I certainly don't hold the title against him. Yet what bothers me is attaching this title to the method of debate thus far. You see, (or you would if you had read our debates) he tends to ignore the bulk of what is said or twist it to say what he wants it to mean. This isn't a good quality in a leader. Certainly not a religious leader. If it is your job to lead people, you need to be able to correctly illustrate what the map and instructions say. You also need to demonstrate that you are capable of listening to the people you are leading, even if to acknowledge and disagree. People you don't listen to tend not to listen to you.

I know some of you have a greater problem with religions in general than some of the rest of us. That's your right. Still, while I have more tolerance for all religions, I can't abide theocracies. It is one thing to say, "Listen to God and live his words" and another thing altogether to say, "Listen to me, I'll relay the important words to you." Then again, I suppose that is the crux of most organized religion.

The thing is, if a member of your congregation comes up to you and tells you their problems, they should be able to expect that any preaching or counseling you provide addresses those problems, not something completely unrelated. They should be able to expect that you will answer what they say, not what you think or want them to mean. Now I know that I am not a member of his congregation, but I also know that he is not likely to completely change his personality with them. Besides, I have seen him do it to a member of his own congregation as well.

I think this is one of the areas that MC comes real close to being right on. Without any established religions, we wouldn't have as many self righteous, closed minded individuals thinking they have a right and a talent for insulting those who don't fall into an immediate lock step with them. Maybe that's just a part of life, or something close to it.

17 Comments:

Blogger Hegemon said...

I also wouldn't need to buy so many bullets.

9:38 PM  
Blogger Arthur Brokop II said...

your post made me a little nervous because the link is mine, but i am not the person you are refering to...
am I? ofcourse I'm not...
he IS one of my "pastors" and I butt heads with him in this forum, but never in the church, because I wouldn't dream of contradicting him infront of other members of the church. MC, If I were your mother, I'd wash your fingers out with soap...
oh the joy of free speech.

5:31 PM  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Chase - for the most part I tend to agree with you. However, passion is only excused so far when one considers the default impact they have on others. Still, the sense you make in your comments is why I keep intending to withdraw from our silly little debates but found myself drawn back.

I must say, quite coincedental timing on your comment, by the way. I in fact followed a link on his blog to yours just the other day to read your version of the shared experience you had.

I am pleased that you chose to weigh in, and you and your father are both always welcome to throw your two cents in out here.

5:14 PM  
Blogger Hegemon said...

I for one would disagree that his heart is in the right place.

And if Mary Ellen was my mother I'd make her go get me a sammich.

1:06 PM  
Blogger Chris P. said...

Isn't it arrogance to pontificate, and pronounce judgement over things that you have no knowledge of?

I will make it easy for you and clear up the false assumptions that most of you have.
1. I am not a pastor. I have never been ordained,(is that what qualifies you to lead?) nor do I care to be.
2. I am a worship leader and the ministry of music is predominantly prophetic.
3. I am not a religious leader. I claim no membership to any religious organization and/or denomination. I am a member of ny church which happens to be affiliated with the Assembly of God. A quick read of their by-laws will tell you that they call themselves a co-operative fellowship, and not a denomination. If you take membership in one of the AG churches you are not a member of any denomination.
4. What you would call modern day christianity would never let me through the front door. I am not "professional clergy" something you seem to tout. When the Lord returns why don't all professionals hold up their degrees and certificates and watch them burn in the fire of His coming.
I am considered to be too "out there" in terms of the music style, but most assuredly in the lyrical content of the songs that we write. I also refuse to wear a suit and tie.

As for my methods of "counseling" folks, how in God's holy name would you know anything about that?
Where did you observe me do this with a member of my own congeregation? Blogland is not the real world FYI. Where were you the last 6 years of their lives?

I do not twist conversation. I simply regurgitate back on you what you wrote.
As for facts; the facts are that the Triune God,Yahweh is absolutely infallible, inerrant, and in complete authority over the believers, and so is His written Word, the Scriptures. What you will hear from me is His Word which is more than sufficient for reproof, correction, salvation, and Godly, compassionate counsel.
You may come visit anytime and see how I interact with the brothers and sisters I serve. We have a food fellowship every Sunday after service for all first timers and the elderly of our church. I do not need to defend myself. Others who know me may do so, or not, as they feel lead.

I do not play games, I do not tiptoe around, I do not "woo people in" I will tell them that they need to surrender to Christ,i.e. Jesus of Nazereth, and repent. The days are evil and growing shorter. The gospel of tolerance, and feel-goodism is a doctrine of demons.
I serve a beautiful people, the Navajo, and would one day gladly die for them if need be.

Last of all, we both know the real reason you keep returning, even if you do not wish to admit it.
Self-deception, by definition, is undetectable. Quick kicking against the goads.

1:10 PM  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Chris P. - Sorry for the misunderstanding. When you told me you were MaryEllen's pastor I assumed that meant you were a pastor. Silly me for believing that even a simple statement like that from you was the truth. Given that our first clash came from you stating yourself as such, every interaction thereafter can be said to be premised on a lie, can it not? Interesting, that. Good show of character.

"Last of all, we both know the real reason you keep returning, even if you do not wish to admit it.
Self-deception, by definition, is undetectable."

We both know the reason despite the fact that I am deceiving myself? How is that? Am I deceiving myself into the truth. You are much ahead of me on this one, I can't seem to wrap my brain around it.

Blogland is not the real world, but your words can still hurt people that read them that are in need. That impacts the real world. In that regard, yes, I have seen you lash out against a member of your own congregation. You can't defend it by pretending the words out here don't exist because they are out here.

You tell me that most of the churches of Christ would not accept you, yet you tout your word as the absolute truth in regards to him. (They all use the same biblical basis, the difference is your interpretation, hence, your word on his word.) You have it right over everyone else then. This also says a lot about you.

Many of us enter into these debates to learn what others can offer as well as share what we have. Some like to assume some sort of religious righteousness and lord it over others. Does my ordination make me better than your lack thereof? Of course not. The only real measure is that I tried to make a connection between us based on a truth I spoke and a lie that you spoke.

1:36 PM  
Blogger Chris P. said...

When did I tell you that I was a pastor?

Maryellen called me one of the pastors. Some of the folks at church call me pastor. I ask them not to, and I do not call myself one. Pastoring is a calling, not a profession.
I did not lie in anything that I have said.
I never lashed out at anyone from my congregation.
I don't fit into the other churches because I am not a professional "church guy"
Do you believe that no one else holds to my study of Scripture?
I have more fellowship with folks than you, I would guarantee, Art and Maryellen included.

It seems that you take a point out of context and build a belief system from that, and call it truth. You could actually earn a living as on of those tv preachers.
Blogland is not the real world, and you really don't have a clue what is going here where we live.
Your false invectives about and against me are the product of imagination, not superior debating skills. My mistake was trying to debate from a theological, Scriptural, standpoint with those who neither know, nor care to know the Scriptures, and the one true God of creation who wrote them.

I suggest that you let your friend know that I am keeping a record of his threats here and on my blog.
It is a violation of federal law whether he means them or not.

3:12 PM  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Chris P. - Technical notes first: He didn't threaten you. He offered you the opportunity to attack him physically. Not that I approve, but that is what was said. In addition, I don't need to tell him something he will obviously read from you, do I? As for when you claimed to be a pastor? It was months ago on the blog we both met on. You told the author that you didn't suppose she would consider speaking to her pastor. This elicited an argument between you and another that I chastised you both on. You clarified things by stating that you were the pastor you referred to. (Look it up in the archives.)
"I have more fellowship with folks than you, I would guarantee, Art and Maryellen included." That may be so, but again assumes something based on a person you know nothing about. I don't keep a time log. When the phone rings at 2am from someone who needs to talk, I simply answer it. That is what we do. Because it isn't a profession, it is a calling.

"My mistake was trying to debate from a theological, Scriptural, standpoint with those who neither know, nor care to know the Scriptures, and the one true God of creation who wrote them." Will you get off your high horse already and call a spade a spade? We weren't arguing theology. First we argued your right to use my words. Not theological. Then we argued about debate style, character, and the argument itself.Not theological. You weren't trying to argue scripture with me, you were trying to get the upper hand in an argument. One I gave you every opportunity to attempt to achieve. This was not scriptural or spiritual. It was a study in written argument.

I must say I am slightly disappointed in your failure to clarify the self-deception comment. It is still boggling me.

6:33 PM  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Chase - I honestly can't argue with you. I think you have just about hit the nail on the head. I figured that out a little while back, and this was the prompting for the somewhat self-deprecating post about both of us taking it too far. Still, isn't Chris P. so cute when he's riled up?

6:34 PM  
Blogger Hegemon said...

I still want to skin him like a rabbit.

7:38 PM  
Blogger Chris P. said...

" He didn't threaten you. He offered you the opportunity to attack him physically."

Check the comments he left on my blog. Since this blog lists him as a contributor, I was just pointing out the facts to you both re:such things. BTW I made no such statements towards you or anyone else.

" You told the author that you didn't suppose she would consider speaking to her pastor."

I meant the senior pastor of our church. There are also two others there. I never specifically made such a claim about myself. I am on the pastoral staff, however I do not call myself a pastor.

I am not riled. Just saddened.
Funny that I am accused of making assumptions about those I don't know. but it seems ok for you to make such assumptions about me and/or others of my "ilk".

3:05 AM  
Blogger Hegemon said...

It's not an assumption; I read your tripe and see/hear your ilk's tripe on a daily basis.

Please stop polluting the planet with your fairy tales and bigotry.

12:09 PM  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Chris - Again you make some interestingly incorrect equations. The regularity with which you do so makes me begin to be concerned for your mental well being. I made no comments at all using the word "ilk." Not my style. Those were somebody else's, but you lay it on my feet as if I am responsible and state that those comments are my assumptions. Disturbing.

Again you have puzzled me: "I meant the senior pastor of our church." This is what you meant when you said you were her pastor? Perhaps this is the source of all of our miscommunications. Your english and mine are apparently not the same.

Finally, for one who "regurgitates back" on what I wrote, let me note that you once more pick and choose your regurgitations. Glossing over my refutation on your claims that this was a scriptural and theological debate?

1:50 PM  
Blogger Chris P. said...

The original post on my blog was theological and the comments that followed were theolgical in nature, until you showed up, a month after that discussion stopped. hijacked the post, and began to fight over your quotation. Did you want royalties or what?
I did not say I was her pastor. SHE said that I was one of her pastors, and I advised her to talk to her pastor, the presiding senior pastor over our church as he was in the dark as to the situation which is not even a "situation" any longer. She could have chosen to speak with any of us.
My comments are to all who are commenting here, and to you. You just get some kind of bizarre enjoyment over splitting hairs.

3:17 PM  
Blogger Hegemon said...

Speaking of credit where credit is due, ilk was mine, from his site I think, but thank you anyways cause the post in it's entirety is pretty nice :)

6:44 PM  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Chris - So I split hairs. I am in fact at least addressing said hairs.

Lisa - I know it was rhetorical, but I have to answer. I bother to respond, because his ability to engage in an argument without even addressing the argument is fascinating to me.

10:20 PM  
Blogger Hegemon said...

The point is, I've been declared to have the argest penis in the thread, exceeding even Lisa's mightly schlong, so I win the thread.

Closed.

7:15 AM  

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