A Different POV
"Sometimes you people amuse me with these petty arguments of yours and sometimes you make me angry." She says this too me even as I plan to jump back into the fray.
"Which is it now?" I ask.
"You would be wiser to ask why, so you wouldn't have to ask which in the future. Come, walk for a moment. Your computer friends can wait for me."
I get up from the computer and I walk downstairs. Rolling a cigarette with one hand has become no easier, and I sense she is getting impatient. Probably as much for the abuse to my body as for the delay. One dead lighter and four books of matches later, my hand throbbing, I have been chided, but I am listening.
"Note the breeze and the sunshine and remember that this is where you find me. Not upstairs in front of the computer. Your arguments about free will are foolish and self serving. Obviously you have the will to argue, and what I know or don't serves no point in this question unless you are planning to try and get around me. I am pleased that you demonstrate a desire to know me and to gain wisdom, but none of you are doing anything at this point other than trying to prove yourselves right.
"There are many teachings that I have provided you. Why focus on this one? Why not focus on the charges I have given? To love one another and care for each other and this planet. Wouldn't that be a better effort?
"I didn't give you your charge so that you could seem more important. Reverend, Pastor or random person on the street, you are all as important to me. You are supposed to teach those you cross paths with about my desires, not beat them with my words. Some of you declare eternal torment at the drop of the hat, when you haven't the power to enforce it. I do. Since it is my power, you stick to the teaching. Leave the threats to me.
"It matters little to me what stories you teach, what names you give to help people understand. Just lead them to me and I will do the rest. I am more than capable. I did reach you after all.
"Let me leave off for now with a simple parental admonition. Play nice, and don't lie or threaten in my name (any of them), and remember you are all just as important to me. Your own parents might have warned that angering them might warrant a spanking. You don't want me to have to spank you to get your attention."
"Which is it now?" I ask.
"You would be wiser to ask why, so you wouldn't have to ask which in the future. Come, walk for a moment. Your computer friends can wait for me."
I get up from the computer and I walk downstairs. Rolling a cigarette with one hand has become no easier, and I sense she is getting impatient. Probably as much for the abuse to my body as for the delay. One dead lighter and four books of matches later, my hand throbbing, I have been chided, but I am listening.
"Note the breeze and the sunshine and remember that this is where you find me. Not upstairs in front of the computer. Your arguments about free will are foolish and self serving. Obviously you have the will to argue, and what I know or don't serves no point in this question unless you are planning to try and get around me. I am pleased that you demonstrate a desire to know me and to gain wisdom, but none of you are doing anything at this point other than trying to prove yourselves right.
"There are many teachings that I have provided you. Why focus on this one? Why not focus on the charges I have given? To love one another and care for each other and this planet. Wouldn't that be a better effort?
"I didn't give you your charge so that you could seem more important. Reverend, Pastor or random person on the street, you are all as important to me. You are supposed to teach those you cross paths with about my desires, not beat them with my words. Some of you declare eternal torment at the drop of the hat, when you haven't the power to enforce it. I do. Since it is my power, you stick to the teaching. Leave the threats to me.
"It matters little to me what stories you teach, what names you give to help people understand. Just lead them to me and I will do the rest. I am more than capable. I did reach you after all.
"Let me leave off for now with a simple parental admonition. Play nice, and don't lie or threaten in my name (any of them), and remember you are all just as important to me. Your own parents might have warned that angering them might warrant a spanking. You don't want me to have to spank you to get your attention."
posted by Wanderer at 10:32 AM
26 Comments:
Re: free will - here's something interesting that Calvin said (not verbatum):
"Scripture affirms both predestination and free will, and does not attempt to relieve the tension between the two."
So in a way both sides are right, and both aren't. I've been trying to wrap my noodle around it and it ain't working. Maybe it's not supposed to be understood?
I don't think he's talking about scripture, chief.
Thanks, mc, but I already knew that. Scripture was the topic of much debate over at maryellen's, and wanderer was there. Thought I'd check out his site and maybe leave a thought for him here that wasn't going to get jumped on by the fightin' fundies. I hope it's not out of place.
Your input is welcome, Grey Owl. As I am sure you surmised, the nature of my comments this time is why they are here instead of in that forum, but anyone crossing over is free to comment. I actually hoped some of you would.
I almost went into a rabid frenzy just from reading the word "fundies."
Call me a bigot if you must but I have so little respect for them.
I sincerly doubt you're a bigot, mc. I don't hate the fundies, but I have to admit they drive my blood pressure up. Don't ever go by thereformation.blogspot unless you've got a paramedic handy...
Wanderer, glad I'm welcome. You are more than welcome at my site as well - I'd love it if you'd share your thoughts on what I've written.
Calm down MC. I am sure if you look back you will find two other posts that didn't include those words: July 20th: A Mother's Love; June 30th: A dream - A Lesson - A Life. As such you will also find the pattern for when, rarely, my tagline is ommitted. As for the anti-spam word, I am jealous you got one you could pronounce.
No, it'd be more like a dance where people run around feeling great about themselves because they're being subliminally messaged.
..
...
Does no one but me remember that game Zoop that had positive subliminal messages in it?
I had literally like nine paragraphs of tearing you to shreds written up before I decided that you were trolling and didn't mean such ludicrous things in te first place.
mc - I remember Zoop! You are not alone!
my verification word: zdiismxu
I admire your restraint, MC. One must remember that religion is likely to come up since A) I am a minister, B) I keep bringing the topic up.
As there are frequently debates on the subject, and we have never agreed, I welcome your input. I would prefer it if "tearing someone up" or general hostility could be kept somewhat in check though.
(I don't say this because you don't know me well enough to know this, but rather because I know you do and would like to acknowledge this to the forum as a whole.)
Oh, and what the hell is zoop?
Zoop was a game for Super Nintendo that was pretty marginal, but it was advertised to make you feel good, like "Play Zoop and your day brightens" etc etc, then it turned out there were subliminal messages in the game, and everything from like, color palette to sounds was specifically picked under psychological reasoning to make the human mind feel happy. But the thing is that someone found out about the subliminal messages, and even though they were all positive and happy things, like "Your life's going great" there was a cntroversy about whether it should be allowed to have subliminal messages at all.
Yeah, because it could have just as easily been messages saying "send your life savings to us" or some crap. Hey, somebody want to make me feel good without the use of marginally-leagal substances, more power to 'em.
Wanderer, in what kind of church are you a minister?
Stop making this so easy and tempting for me....
Sure you can. I think it's actually a fairly proven science. Your subconscious mind picks them up.
Wikipedia != a reliable source of information.
PS != means "not equal to" in computer science.
It is my understanding that subliminal messages are much like a lower form of hypnotic suggestion. The messages never worked right though. Inserting a frame with a giant bottle of coke at varying points in a movie tended to make some thirsty, but not particularly inclined to buy a coke.
The research has been done, but I don't plan on looking it up for either of you, on the grounds that finding the real info amongst all the crap on line is too time consuming for a subject I only marginally care about.
NOTHING, and I reapeat, NOTHING, is more important or relevant than mid-90s Super Nintendo games.
31 comments eh' wanderer?
but what about your orgininal post?
its all about the lady isn't it?
her way sounds simple enough...love and nature and all that...
and I am really sick of this freewill predestination banter myself...
I love what Chip said about about Luther and Calvin...might add Agustine to the list...
but still and all, I just can't ignor the cross - love to all my favorite Rochesterians...New Mexico Sucks!
I wouldn't suggest that you do ignore the cross. Then again, you know as well as I do that the God has been sacrificed for the good of the people for ages. At some point, if you are willing to share (perhaps in private correspondence) I would be really interested to know why things changed for you. What led you from where I am to where you are?
There would be no real reason for me to remove your comment, MC, especially since I am probably the last of the folks here to see it. Perhaps in the future you can be a little less explicit in reference to your sexual activities. Not that I am being particularly prude, I just don't want any visuals in regards to your genitalia.
And you all have the gall to insult me. LOL
Since I do not fit the classic definition of a fundie, let's see the real problem.
1. Anyone who actually reads Scripture and believes it as absolute Truth i.e. the word of God
is a fundamentalist, and to be pitied and ridiculed.
Isaiah 5:20-21
2. Anything that taxes our minds we blow off with a simple "maybe it's not supposed to be understood"
He gives us the Word to understand. He chooses whom He will reveal Himself to, and He does the actual revealing through the Holy Spirit. Man cannot take credit for anything he knows of God.
What is His is His, and what he has revealed to us i.e. Scripture is for us. Deut 29:29
The Hebrew words shema, shama, (hear) and shachah, (submit i.e. unconditional obedience) are all used in referring to worship, literally meaning, "Shut up and do what I told you. You understood every word." They imply hearing, understanding and doing.
To claim ignorance is rebellion.
1 Samuel 15: 22-23. God requires obedience which is true worship, not relativistic banter.
Let is also remember that if we have true free will, then our life is what WE have made of it.
Chris P. - "And you all have the gall to insult me. LOL"
While it is quite possible that you have been insulted by Grey Owl or MaryEllen in the past, and undoubtedly have felt that way from me; this comment doesn't stand. MC and Lisanocerous amongst other visitors don't even know who you are, and as such haven't insulted you yet. (A particularly important point since MC's words are probably what you refer to in trying to demean us as a group.)
"Let is also remember that if we have true free will, then our life is what WE have made of it." WE not God. My point in all of our free will arguments. Have you suddenly joined my side?
The rest I would comment on, but in truth I can't make heads or tails of it. You seem to be makind a point about fundamentalists, but I have no idea where you are coming from. (A dangerous side effect to quoting others more than injecting your own words. I can't even tell if you agree or disagree with your own comment.)
Feel free to post again in English any time you would like.
Actually I wa referring more to Grey Owl's comments about my blog.
As for English, lol,
I was addressing several things that were posted here. I was quoting Scripture and applying it to several points made. You obviosly have no knowledge of the Bible and probably view such knowledge as useless.
No I am not on your side (lol even harder)
Our free will is limited by God's sovereign will. I was pointing out the absurdity of griping about life, if you are a free will propoonent, since you have made it what it is.
The one true God, Yahweh, is the engineer of all our circunstances, period.
Ultimately, who will argue with the Lord?
Chris P.,
"I was addressing several things that were posted here. I was quoting Scripture and applying it to several points made. You obviosly have no knowledge of the Bible and probably view such knowledge as useless."
Your habit of instantly judging people you know nothing about and insulting them on those judgements must make you a hell of a minister. If you deal this way with your clergy I hope more leave than commit suicide.
I am familiar with the bible. I know where the quotes came from, and while not the end all and be all, I see much use for the bible. All such accusations (as many other of yours) are completely fabricated from a mind that appears not to have a grasp on reality. At least in connection with anything that is being said to them of a less than agreeable nature.
My question was what the point you were trying to make with your verses was. I could spontaneously quote anyone, and without pointing out what I was trying to say it could be lost.
Why unleash hostility because somebody points out that there is something to be desired in your communication skills? Why not just try to explain your point? Especially to someone who doesn't give a rat's ass whether you like him or not, insult him or not, as long as you are speaking the truth.
Goddess I wish I didn't so frequently have to tell my elders to grow up.
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