What We Need Is An Alien Invasion
You see it time and again in the movies. The alien invaders are coming with superior intelligence, superior technology, superior everything. How do the humans win? Through resolve and determination and a timely dose of ingenuity. Yet what always lies underneath that crust? The population of the world working together. Putting aside their differences in an attempt to avoid extermination. In an "us against them" mentality, everyone sticks with the "us-es".
The fact that they are superior to us in every way doesn't matter, because our unity, and determination and resolve will take the day, as long as we work together. An interesting thought. Let me take it in a potentially unexpected direction.
The Goddess or other god that many people believe in is, by definition, quite different from us. An alien form. Not necessarily one who is directly attacking us, but is rather apparently doing it insidiously by getting us to attack one another, through teachings that certain qualities or tendencies of man require that they be shunned or killed.
Lets look at this. So many of the religions out there, whether divinely inspired or not, encourage destruction of your fellow man if they don't meet the mold. People blow themselves up to kill others based on their interpretation of the Koran. People shoot doctors who perform abortions due to their interpretation of the Bible. Hell, they even promote the death of homosexuals based on the same book.
Many other examples of a less immediate and lethal nature exist of conflict based on these various alien forces. Why then, don't we look to the hope of those movies. That humans will stand together amongst their own for the common good? To protect themselves from the idiocy that creates this division (or even if you believe it is truly a god's commandment, from the idiocy of said god) and protect our own?
Why instead do we have senseless wars and forums where people scream their vitriolic hatred at each other based on who one has sex with. Why do we have the anti-war center locally destroyed by a vandal while our own people die for no reason over seas? Why do we have people cutting each other down without the outside interference.
The whys are difficult. The result is more easily understood. All that it accomplishes is that the Goddess shakes her head and wonders why we won't allow ourselves to evolve.
A question that is one of the most fundamental questions about life, or something close to it.
The fact that they are superior to us in every way doesn't matter, because our unity, and determination and resolve will take the day, as long as we work together. An interesting thought. Let me take it in a potentially unexpected direction.
The Goddess or other god that many people believe in is, by definition, quite different from us. An alien form. Not necessarily one who is directly attacking us, but is rather apparently doing it insidiously by getting us to attack one another, through teachings that certain qualities or tendencies of man require that they be shunned or killed.
Lets look at this. So many of the religions out there, whether divinely inspired or not, encourage destruction of your fellow man if they don't meet the mold. People blow themselves up to kill others based on their interpretation of the Koran. People shoot doctors who perform abortions due to their interpretation of the Bible. Hell, they even promote the death of homosexuals based on the same book.
Many other examples of a less immediate and lethal nature exist of conflict based on these various alien forces. Why then, don't we look to the hope of those movies. That humans will stand together amongst their own for the common good? To protect themselves from the idiocy that creates this division (or even if you believe it is truly a god's commandment, from the idiocy of said god) and protect our own?
Why instead do we have senseless wars and forums where people scream their vitriolic hatred at each other based on who one has sex with. Why do we have the anti-war center locally destroyed by a vandal while our own people die for no reason over seas? Why do we have people cutting each other down without the outside interference.
The whys are difficult. The result is more easily understood. All that it accomplishes is that the Goddess shakes her head and wonders why we won't allow ourselves to evolve.
A question that is one of the most fundamental questions about life, or something close to it.
posted by Wanderer at 3:57 AM
12 Comments:
you may just be right. i've been wondering why we don't get any better as a human race lately. no good answers so far.
Wow. Yeah. I wish we could wise up. Maybe one day we will realize we don't need something to be against in order to have something to be FOR. If that makes any sense.
I'm not sure I get it. You're saying that God/The Goddess is an evil alien force who uses the world's various religions to instigate hatred and war? But this is really for our own good because what God/The Goddess is trying to accomplish through this program is goading us into rebellion against Him/Her, which would make us better people? This doesn't make any sense at all. The simpler explanation would be that people are naturally inclined towards killing and hate, and they twist the revelations of the divine to reflect this in their religions as in every other walk of life.
anonymous - "You're saying that God/The Goddess is an evil alien force who uses the world's various religions to instigate hatred and war? But this is really for our own good because what God/The Goddess is trying to accomplish through this program is goading us into rebellion against Him/Her, which would make us better people?"
No. That isn't at all what I am saying.
"This doesn't make any sense at all."
Agreed.
"The simpler explanation would be that people are naturally inclined towards killing and hate, and they twist the revelations of the divine to reflect this in their religions as in every other walk of life."
This is what I was saying. Thanks for playing.
"Why then, don't we look to the hope of those movies. That humans will stand together amongst their own for the common good? To protect themselves from the idiocy that creates this division (or even if you believe it is truly a god's commandment, from the idiocy of said god) and protect our own?"
Well, since this is pretty much the plot of Philip Pullman's Golden Compass trilogy, I thought you were looking to produce a spinoff...
Anonymous - My deepest apologies for having better things to do than watch the latest controversial movie.
I haven't the slightest idea what the premise is of said movie, outside of what I might derive from your claim that I am close.
Your name wouldn't be Chris, would it?
I imagine not, but said intellectually challenged individual is the last one I ran across who intentionally misquoted me and then followed up with such a blatantly bullshit pseudo-argument.
I again will indicate that I am thoroughly amused that you have made a foray into intellectual debate, and can't wait for you to learn how it works.
You see, first you need an argument. Preferably one that doesn't begin with obviously misquoting me. (It helps if you read what I wrote.) Background helps. (i.e. If you read any of my posts before this you might begin to understand that the argument I made here is in line with what I have been saying for two years.)
Finally, one might address the discussion, rather than resort to claims of plagiarism, which even within themselves offer nothing to the conversation, either in agreement or dispute.
In short, if you have anything useful to offer this discussion, feel free. If not, feel free to throw absurdities out there. It doesn't hurt me any.
I will throw you an incredible revelation in passing, though. Hundreds of thousands of people have disagreed with churches through the ages, and as many or more have had issues with how the human race conducts itself. If you think that pointing out that someone else amongst the billions of people who have existed on this planet has thought on similar lines as me is shocking, you are mistaken. I can do the math.
If there is an argument you were planning to get to at some point, and this is just the prologue, then by all means, get to it. As soon as your mom lets you use the computer again.
Wow, Steve. That's way more of a reaction than I expected.
First of all, I wasn't trying to start a debate. In my first post, I was just pointing out that there seemed to be a piece of illogic in your writing. You start out by comparing God/or the Goddess to an alien invasion that humanity needs to stand together to overcome. But you close with the Goddess shaking her head and wondering why we can't become better as a species. So I was hoping you would clarify: is God/the Goddess good or evil in your scenario? Would good use evil means to get our attention and spur on positive change (the old "end justifies the means" approach)?
From your first response, it looked to me as though you weren't really heading in that direction, but were instead just using the "alien invasion" comparison as a preamble to say that people should recognize our common humanity and not allow ourselves to be sucked into religious wars by our manipulative leaders. So I decided not to pursue that point any further. I still think you made a leap in logic, but it's not worth bothering about.
But then your imagery reminded me of Philip Pullman's books, in which monotheism is portrayed as a repressive, totalitarian, world-dominating system. The heroes have to go to war against God to save humanity. So I thought it might be fun to mention that in the context of your post, and turn the conversation in a different direction since you didn't want to go into more detail about your original post.
I'm kind of suprised that you haven't read these books; they seem like something you'd enjoy. Every blasphemous thing that the wackos who protested against the Harry Potter books thought was in them is really in Philip Pullman. I find that quite hilarious.
So now I've done what I was trying to avoid earlier and typed a huge long column of text into a tiny box when I'm supposed to be working. Oh well, I hope you are somewhat mollified.
Anonymous - I am sorry that you were surprised by my response. That is one of the risks of communication between strangers.
"I was just pointing out that there seemed to be a piece of illogic in your writing. You start out by comparing God/or the Goddess to an alien invasion that humanity needs to stand together to overcome. But you close with the Goddess shaking her head and wondering why we can't become better as a species."
A transition in the argument. I began with a static view point that could transcend religious positions and ended with my own religious position.
"So I was hoping you would clarify: is God/the Goddess good or evil in your scenario? Would good use evil means to get our attention and spur on positive change (the old "end justifies the means" approach)?"
It would have helped if you originally asked me to clarify this position. I generally do my best to accomodate such requests. (Much more amicably than when told me statement makes no sense and you have a better explanation. Particularly when I am misquoted.)
The Goddess is neither good nor evil in my "scenario". She simply is what She is. As for good using evil means, by default the answer would have to be no. No matter how destructive the actions might be, if it truly is for the greater good of all (truly is, not just perceived to be) then it can not be said those actions are evil. The end is not justifying the means, the all is simply acting as Her own justification.
That being said, bear in mind also that I speak from a religious viewpoint whose traditions don't contain any "thou shalt not suffer 'x' to live" clauses.
I intended to point out that in the alien invasion scenario, religion never matters, it is humanity taking care of human survival. If a god did exist, and said god ordered such violent and lethal division as some claim in their god's name, this god would be equivalent to that alien force, and we should in theory rebel for the sake of our own. Banding together instead of destroying. Bitter enemies stand side by side to defend their nations when they are under attack, yet when humanity itself is under attack we do not?
So it is a two-fold consideration. Could your god be ordering these things, and even if so, how does one justify complicity in the scheme?
"I still think you made a leap in logic"
I was quoting an ideal in a fictional setting, not any historical precedent. I think the leap was implied if this was looked at as a scientific, rather than philosophical argument.
"So I thought it might be fun to mention that in the context of your post, and turn the conversation in a different direction since you didn't want to go into more detail about your original post."
Being accused of plagiarism, or even a simple lack of individual thought is rarely considered fun by the accused. As to the latter, your comment did come across as an attack, not a request for further explanation.
I always put my posts out in the hopes that conversation might be sparked, and am generally more than willing to share. In point of fact, while slightly sarcastic in response to your aggressive wording, I did initially open the door to such conversation. I did point out precisely where your comments and mine were in synch, didn't I?
Feel free to continue to comment on this or other posts of mine. Just don't be surprised if you choose to take an aggressive approach when I, as often as not, respond in kind.
Ha! Most places I post tend to see a long and detailed post as insulting and argumentative, while a short and pointed comment is either ignored or run with. I'll try to remember that you see it the other way around. Sorry you read more into my brief words than was intended.
As I read your last response more closely, I still have one significant reservation: in your original post, you judge the worth of a religious teaching by humanistic standards. If a god seems to be advocating actions that hurt other people, then that religion is "idiocy" and its practitioners should turn and fight against their god.
Your own religion is not implicated in this scenario, because it does not encourage any anti-humanistic behavior.
However, in your last response, you state that your deity's actions would be justified, no matter how destructive, if they were truly meant to accomplish the greater good.
So if your religion's teachings someday conflicted with your own understanding of what's good for humanity, what would you do? Would you trust that your deity knows what she's doing, even if you and your family have to suffer in the short term? Or would you fight against your god?
I understand that this is only a theoretical question, because I think we've both established that it's human intolerance and bad behavior you are actually critiquing in your original post. But anytime you judge the divine by human standards, it raises the question: where does the ultimate standard for goodness come from? Is humanity greater than our gods?
Anonymous:
"However, in your last response, you state that your deity's actions would be justified, no matter how destructive, if they were truly meant to accomplish the greater good."
I have to argue minor semantics in this, in reiterating that I do not believe that the Goddess is capable of failing in a specific plan She sets out in, so it wouldn't be something "meant" to accomplish the greater good, but something that actually did.
"So if your religion's teachings someday conflicted with your own understanding of what's good for humanity, what would you do? Would you trust that your deity knows what she's doing, even if you and your family have to suffer in the short term? Or would you fight against your god?"
I don't see this conflict occurring. Theoretically, if what She was doing conflicted with what was good for humanity, I would have to side with humanity. Not because I presume to know better, but because this is what is expected. She knows we must operate within our own frame of understanding, and to accomplish anything we are intended to, we have to exist. Fighting the circumstances that threaten us as a species is part of Her expectation of us.
"in your original post, you judge the worth of a religious teaching by humanistic standards."
(I know I quote out of order, I only do so with the intent of a more fluid reply, and hope not to misconstrue your words in the process.)
We must judge based on our standards. We have no other choice. The Goddess, to the larger extent, leaves teachings that are understandable to the rational mind. If we could not rationalize Her commands and desires, we couldn't worship Her. A Goddess that was beyond our understanding (i.e. irrational) would not be worth worshipping, as success or failure would be more of a coin flip than anything else.
"If a god seems to be advocating actions that hurt other people, then that religion is 'idiocy' and its practitioners should turn and fight against their god."
"However, in your last response, you state that your deity's actions would be justified, no matter how destructive, if they were truly meant to accomplish the greater good."
I would draw attention to the fact that the first references commands for us to destroy our own, the second references actions on Her part. Two different circumstances, thus not contradictory as far as I see it. (Granted, I see the entirety of my personal understanding, and thus may fail to see a failure in communicating my intent in these words, as I may read more into them than I am successfully explaining.)
" where does the ultimate standard for goodness come from? Is humanity greater than our gods?"
What is good for the world is judged by the Goddess, as She is the only one who can process the enormity of factors involved in an empirical observation. Similar could be said about our race specifically. Her greater understanding does not trump the expectation for us to come to what answers we can in the interest of self preservation.
Thanks, Steve. There's probably a lot more we could say about this stuff, but I'm getting dizzy now from scrolling up and down the comments list. I'm sure I'll have more conversation with you on another subject.
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