This Silly Christmas Argument
You know what the biggest problem is in regards to this "War on Christmas" debate? It is the fact that all of these people whining about it don't realize that they are attempting to destroy a good thing.
There is no way that the general public is going to be forced to acknowledge the story of the nativity in association with this holiday. Therefore, if Christ could be forced back into the season, the holiday would suffer, in that nowhere near as many would participate and recognize it. (Not that I am saying I think this goal can be achieved.)
Think about this. Nobody can change how you celebrate your holiday. No number of Merry Christmases are going to destroy Yule for me, or Hannukah for any who celebrate it. Atheists might take offense to the Merry Christmas comment, but given its commercialization and recentralization around Santa Clause and other commercial myths, there is no reason for them to associate anything religious with it at all. It is just another federal holiday.
The point I am trying to get to is this: One of the greatest things about this season is that everyone gets together to enjoy it. Family and friends gather around, offices close, gifts are exchanged and food is consumed. Your family celebrates together and you know that most of your neighbors are doing the whole thing. Our entire national community is engaged in celebration of the season. That makes the season pretty impressive.
Today is Yule. While it is the holiday that I celebrate, it is basically just another day. I will go to work. I will come home and hang around with my family. There will be a minor celebration, but it does not carry the same feeling of joy and celebration. There was not the same anticipation. The reason? Because many of my friends and neighbors and some of my family aren't celebrating. Many of them don't even know that the Solstice is today. Many of them wouldn't care if they did.
So for me, my religious holiday will be a quiet one. Much quieter than the upcoming Christmas holiday. Even I look forward to that day with some anticipation because of the various family gatherings that will be had. The parties that will be celebrated, and the people whom I see once or twice a year that will gather back around. Christmas isn't my holiday, but my Yule celebration to some extent will be delayed to coincide because that is when the community has decided to celebrate.
Think of how exciting the Christmas season is and tell me that you really think it would be so exciting if it wasn't so commercialized and public. If the entire community wasn't counting down to it together and celebrating together on that day. Whether you say Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas shouldn't be the important issue here. The important issue is that on the day you have chosen to commemorate the birth of the Son of God, the entire nation celebrates. They aren't celebrating the same thing as you, but that should be okay, for they raise the air of celebration all around you.
Rather than creating this war on terminology why aren't we just going with it? Regardless of the greeting, it is the same sentiment, true or false, that is being expressed. Nothing we say or do in your environment should be powerful enough to shake your faith. If it is, then look to yourself and don't blame us. If God enacted a miracle in your life, would you nitpick about the details of how it was accomplished? Why then do you complain about the miracle the people have enacted for him in that everyone is celebrating his birthday, regardless of how that celebration was accomplished?
Stop throwing stones and celebrate the season as it was intended to be celebrated. With good will, not venomous words. Celebrate whatever season you wish to call it, and borrow from the joy all around you as the nation celebrates the various seasons of its people's choosing. In the end, your personal celebration shouldn't be effected by mine, and when the season is over, both of us will be returning to our life, or something close to it.
There is no way that the general public is going to be forced to acknowledge the story of the nativity in association with this holiday. Therefore, if Christ could be forced back into the season, the holiday would suffer, in that nowhere near as many would participate and recognize it. (Not that I am saying I think this goal can be achieved.)
Think about this. Nobody can change how you celebrate your holiday. No number of Merry Christmases are going to destroy Yule for me, or Hannukah for any who celebrate it. Atheists might take offense to the Merry Christmas comment, but given its commercialization and recentralization around Santa Clause and other commercial myths, there is no reason for them to associate anything religious with it at all. It is just another federal holiday.
The point I am trying to get to is this: One of the greatest things about this season is that everyone gets together to enjoy it. Family and friends gather around, offices close, gifts are exchanged and food is consumed. Your family celebrates together and you know that most of your neighbors are doing the whole thing. Our entire national community is engaged in celebration of the season. That makes the season pretty impressive.
Today is Yule. While it is the holiday that I celebrate, it is basically just another day. I will go to work. I will come home and hang around with my family. There will be a minor celebration, but it does not carry the same feeling of joy and celebration. There was not the same anticipation. The reason? Because many of my friends and neighbors and some of my family aren't celebrating. Many of them don't even know that the Solstice is today. Many of them wouldn't care if they did.
So for me, my religious holiday will be a quiet one. Much quieter than the upcoming Christmas holiday. Even I look forward to that day with some anticipation because of the various family gatherings that will be had. The parties that will be celebrated, and the people whom I see once or twice a year that will gather back around. Christmas isn't my holiday, but my Yule celebration to some extent will be delayed to coincide because that is when the community has decided to celebrate.
Think of how exciting the Christmas season is and tell me that you really think it would be so exciting if it wasn't so commercialized and public. If the entire community wasn't counting down to it together and celebrating together on that day. Whether you say Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas shouldn't be the important issue here. The important issue is that on the day you have chosen to commemorate the birth of the Son of God, the entire nation celebrates. They aren't celebrating the same thing as you, but that should be okay, for they raise the air of celebration all around you.
Rather than creating this war on terminology why aren't we just going with it? Regardless of the greeting, it is the same sentiment, true or false, that is being expressed. Nothing we say or do in your environment should be powerful enough to shake your faith. If it is, then look to yourself and don't blame us. If God enacted a miracle in your life, would you nitpick about the details of how it was accomplished? Why then do you complain about the miracle the people have enacted for him in that everyone is celebrating his birthday, regardless of how that celebration was accomplished?
Stop throwing stones and celebrate the season as it was intended to be celebrated. With good will, not venomous words. Celebrate whatever season you wish to call it, and borrow from the joy all around you as the nation celebrates the various seasons of its people's choosing. In the end, your personal celebration shouldn't be effected by mine, and when the season is over, both of us will be returning to our life, or something close to it.
posted by Wanderer at 11:56 AM
17 Comments:
Don't forget, you zealots and bigots who want to "put the Christ back in Christmas", that you're not only doing that but you're forcing Christ into MY December 25th as well. Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins, and you've well exceeded that.
Fuck Christ. That guy was a total quitter anyways.
You have no idea how infuriated I am that my entire weekend is going to be consumed with family get togethers with people I don't know (I only see them once or twice a year) and the waste of money that is gifts (I'll spend $50 of mine for something you don't want if you'll spend $50 of yours on something I don't want. Deal?) and all this stupid Christmas bullshit.
God I hate Christmas and people who peddle it. I have a special sphere of hatred reserved for you jerkoffs who insist on pushing your religion on everyone else.
So if you say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays to a Jew, Congratulations, I hope you enjoyed intentionally going out of your way to not acknowledge his beliefs. I do it, because you're all retarded cultists anyways and don't deserve recognition, but if you're allready at the crazy cultist level isn't it pretty much customary to acknowledge other people's cults as well?
I have better things to do than waste my breath trying to spread enlightenment or reason to you idiots. Regards.
PS Insert more invective here. I mean it. I really, really hate and disrespect all of you. I think maybe from now on atheism is a prerequisite for me to speak to someone.
Hey, Wanderer, if I had known that my little rant on the holidays would be so controvertial that once again my hits would spike and the "debate" would spread to your blog, I might have either reconsidered, or done it sooner! (:
But, you're right, all of the holidays are important to those who celebrate them, and I only wanted to vent, mostly satirical (Do you really think I was so offended by the drunken ginger bread men?). I never meant to sound like that guy on FOX news! I hope your Yule time is special for you and your family (say "HI" to them for me!) Do they make "Baby's First Yule" T-shirts?
And to M.C. If Christ was a quitter, he never would have gone to the cross. He went willingly and could have easily gotten out of it, but his death was his mission (even according to secular historians). And instead of just spending fifty bucks on me, just send me the cash! But you're not reading this anyway. I'm not an atheist. I am a self described religious nut, and proud of it!
And, by the way, telling any true Christian that you hate then and have no respect for them will only get you prayed for more, so be careful!
Whatever you celebrate and believe, have a great holiday!
GB,ABR
by the way, I am a Jewish Christian who celebrates Christmas and is fully aware that today is the solstice! What would you say to me, besides your various explitives and insults! At the risk of raising a few eyebrows, I wish I had never danced with you, MC!
godbless
We aren't the ones pushing Christmas on you. The only direct impact we have is that the day has become one where you get off of work or you get paid more money to do the same job.
If you are forced to associate with people you don't want to, that isn't on all of us crazy religious nuts. Only on the ones in your family that put this priority on you.
Whatever people want to argue about the point of the holiday, nobody forces you to partake in it. So there are a lot of commercials and ads about it. Tough. There are a lot of commercials and ads throughout the year about feminine hygeine products, hemmorhoid creams and medication for STD's that I would really just as soon not see. Yet they are there for someone and thus the rest of us deal.
Since some of us never force our religious beliefs on you, or even bring them up around you anymore, because we know how you feel about the subject, I am not sure why atheism would be a pre-requisite for speaking to someone. Still, if that is going to be the case, it will be a sorry end to a lengthy friendship between us, because understand or not, you know I can't cross that bridge.
One of the best Christmas memories of our family was 1988, we were living in Victor and were absolutely broke. Didn't even have enough money for gas enough to get into church, but thanks to special some very special people, people that you know very well, it was wonderful! Friends and family, that's what makes Christmas so special, and the lights and the cookies, but like Arthur, I firmly believe the true reason for the season is...
We could just start saying, "Happy Christmahaunakwanzaka." That'd cover pretty much everyone.
I didn't say dying wasn't his mission, I said he was a quitter. If he wasn't a quitter he'd have gathered an army and defeated the Romans. Instead he took the easier way out and got his people a nice little Diaspora.
As for what I would say to you, I would say that yuou have an awareness of the cults of others; have the strength to see through the circular logic, specious reasoning and mysticism, the last of which is purely smoke and mirrors to cover up the huge gaps in logic, and duiscover the illusion that it really is. Be a mind.
As for you Wanderer you were meant to be excepted from that new guideline, if you wish to be, that comment was mostly directed towards people like chris P and maryellen, and now this guy, and the jerks who think it's now socially acceptable to have a thirty-foot neon Jesus on their lawns because hey, it's an expression of my faith, not a giant eyesore that everyone else has to deal with as they sleep in their neon-flooded bedrooms at night trying to get the pastel yellows and glaring pinks out of their eyes, a la that episode of Seinfeld where they build a Kenny Rogers' Roasters next to Kramer's apartment.
In response to your argument that no one is forcing me to participate in your little holiday, that's total bullshit. I can't look around without seeing a santa hat, a wreath, ornaments, garlands, presents or wrapping paper around pictures/cubicle walls, hearing christmas carols on otherwise inoffensive radio stations, listen to the news without hearing some blithering Christian idiot talking about his constitutional right to put christmas trees/crucifixes/neon Jesuses/he slogan "merry christmas", whichever may apply, into courthouses/public schools/billboards/municipal buses/subways/the surface of the Moon, whichever may apply. I repeat, emphatically and without leaving any room for doubt as to my sincerity, every single year, stop buying me shit for this holiday I hate so much, but every year people do it and then call me grumpy, ungrateful, rude, or any number of other things for not reciprocating or accepting their gifts.
At least most of you have managed to reject Catholicism, THE most ridiculous religion I've ever heard of, but step two is rinse and repeat. Stillborn babies going to purgatory because no one splashed magic water on their heads is pretty ridiculous and you've realized that; next is to realize that a god who demands obedience and worship yet refuses to prove he exists is pretty ridiculous too.
The point is, I'm done here. No matter where I'm posting, I know no one cares to hear my true feelings and frankly I'm tired of spending all the energy of composing them knowing full-well the whole time that no one reads them.
mc - I think you've got a good point, but what about people who feel that an oversexed culture is being "forced" on them as well? You can hardly look anywhere without seeing bare midriffs these days, and tv/media in general is taking the "sex sells" ideology to an extreme that even secularists find unhealthy. Some people are truly offended by this, and their complaints are met with derision and ridicule (as are many complaints about the offensivness of Christmas). Will society ever be able to be completely inoffensive?
You do have a point.
I'm thinking that the main difference is that there's laws against publicly displaying pornography. Whereas I enjoy pornography and strippers and whores in relative privacy, most people go out of their way to display their religious beliefs as publicly and engage as many people as possible.
mc
i wonder why you feel you need to use foul language to make your point, it doesn't bother me here, and actually, i liked to hear your opinions on my site, gave my "Christian" readers an insight into the "soul" of a true Atheist, which not many of them have a chance to see. I just didn't like your potty mouth. The Atheist on the ABC special didn't spout profanity when she gave her well expressed opinion.
And actually, people do read your comments, so maybe you should use a little wisdom in how you express yourself, blogs are pretty public you know.
Two more comments on what you said - Sex vs Christianity - neon Jesus's on the front lawn (reminds me of the year someone stole my St. Joseph from my lit up nativity sceen on Christmas eve, where were you December 24, 2002?)anyway, those symbols are just symbols, they are not actually preaching the whole of Christianity any more than bare midriffs, scoop necks, tight jeans and butt cracks are actually ponography.
second point - Jesus was not a quitter. If He hadn't risen from the grave (He's Alive) nothing he said or did would have mattered at all. There is this controversial movie, The Last Temptation of Christ, and many other Christians would chastise me for even mentioning it, but it gives a unique perspective on the true mission of Jesus. He was not concerned with politics, empires, or any other human concept. He did not come to get rid of rome, he came to get rid of sin, and he did not come to provide temporary freedom of a generation of opressed Hebrews, he came to provide eternal salvation for everyone which is far more important than whose face is on the coin. The movie is just a movie, but the idea is an interesting one.
The reason why I use foul language is because I find it very descriptive and useful. I don't "need" to swear to make my point, it's how I speak. I'm just as capable of expressing myself in a professional manner (I'm a corporate instructor, after all), but when I'm allowed to (which is anytime no one can fire me) I will speak as I choose, which includes foul language.
If you didn't appreciate it on your blog, fine, that is your prerogative. At the time I was just trying to stick up for you, but whatever, it's not a conscious act with me to swear. It's how I talk.
He's not alive. He's dead. He died in a Roman execution. He didn't accomplish anything except creating another cult, and were he to have fought on perhaps he could have liberated the Jews if he were any kind of real messiah. Instead he let himself be caught and killed. Something tells me we would never have won the American Revolution if Washington had decided to make a martyr of himself before the war.
I went to the mall today because I wanted a gray dress shirt, a poker table, and maybe if they were cheap, a Carson Palmer jersey. Of course they were out of stock of every good player's jersey because of the holiday rush, they were out of the kind of poker table I wanted because of the holiday rush, and the line to buy my one shirt, the only thing I wanted at that point, was approximately ten light years long. I won't be able to register my winter car with the DMV on Friday because of the holiday. Fuck that holiday. I wanted to go on a skiing trip this weekend, but I can't because the plane fares are ridiculous between December 22nd and January 3rd because of the holiday, and I'm betting all the rooms anywhere are booked and the prices are jacked up anyways. I have a training class that I need to get up to speed and functional before a certain date, but I lose half of them on Friday cause they want to travel somewhere to celebrate a holiday, and then they all get Monday off because of the holiday, so that's two whole days, which translates to like 10% of my available class time, because of this stupid holiday. I still get my eight hours pay for that day because I'm management but I won't get my normal three or four hours overtime.
Fuck that holiday. It's fucking up everything for me this week and probably next week. None of my friends want to do stuff this weekend because they have plans.. At least two or three of us can get together Saturday night for some heavy drinking, but then no one wants to hang out on Sunday, and I guarantee at least one of those guys is going to have to leave early because of Sunday.
I reiterate: Fuck that.
hey anything that keeps drunks at home with their families and off the street cant be that bad...blah blah blah...
And I really have to stay away from here for a while because seeing F#*@ and Jesus (sorry LORD) in the same sentence makes me sick...
MC, it's "that guy" again...
not that I enjoy arguing with you, and thanks for sticking up for Maryellen. Regardless of how you did it or with what language you used, I know she appreciated it.
Just a thought on Jesus, coming from a Jewish person's perspective. So, maybe he did create another "cult", as you put it, but bear in mind that during the first century B.C. and the first century A.D. there were literally dozens, if not hundreds of "messiahs" yet, besides the ones named in the book of Acts as clearly false, no one now remembers who they were. My point? What was so different about this one man who claimed to be the messiah than the dozens of others who did so? Besides, the mark of failure for one of these was a roman crucifixion, yet Jesus is the only one who has a steady following to this day. Why? And why would ten of the eleven apostles submit to execution for claiming that Jesus was alive if all they had to do was admit he was dead and they would be freed? Would you die for a lie you made up just to prove a point? They had a choice: say Jesus really was dead and go free, or stick to their claim that he had been raised up and be executed. But then again, I guess they were all quitters too. Show me Jesus' body and I'll retract everything I have just said. If not...
Anyway, I'm done with this. Wanderer, keep up the great writing. I may not agree with you, and vice versa, but our differences are what makes our friendship so great! Say hi to your family, God Bless, and see you in blogdom!
ABR
Amen, brother.
Did you seriously just say you want to be shown physiocal evidence of a corpse from two thousand years ago?
Personally, I don't believe Julius Caesar died. Show me HIS corpse. I also don't believe Verson Goetterix ever lived. Show me HIS corpse, and only then will I believe you that they're dead.
IT'S CARBON-BASED, BURIED IN THE GROUND, and has had TWO THOUSAND YEARS to decompse.. "Show me his body".. pfft.
Also, you offer the evidence "He must be God because a religion was started around him." OK, so by that logic, wouldn't anyone who had a religion started about them be proven a god? You must also be a Muslim, Buddhist, and a Zoroastrian, because Mohammad, Siddhartha, and Zarathustra all had religions started about them, thus proving that they were gods.
Your other proof was that he must have been God because the apostles were willing to die for him. The BRanch Davidians were willing to die for Koresh. All those guys in Guyana were willing to die for Jim Jones. Apparently they were both god, too.
The churches don't exactly grow the smartest of them, do they? Then again, as previously discussed, I shouldn't insult your intelligence. You're allready a Christian, no further derogation needed.
Also, Kami is an idiot too.
You know nothing about Kami, MC. That last comment was uncalled for. I understand how and why some of these issues bother you. Verbally assaulting someone because you perceive them to agree with someone you are debating with is inappropriate, and petty. While I tend to think you are probably right about the sentiment expressed, the wording indicates that she agrees with someone. No names mentioned. While perhaps simply not as experience with large rambling blogs, the wording she used without addressing anyone means it is as likely or more that she was responding to my post, not your bickering.
I am not trying to ascertain which she meant, she can share if she wants, but the point remains you are unleashing hostility towards someone on my blog that has obviously not posted enough to have possibly merited the attack.
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